I think we should petition Microsoft to release DX10 for XP, or maybe Lee could give us DBP for Linux I'm getting fed up with all the Microsoft Bloatware, I upgraded to XP because it was meant to be better (in excess of 50 patches/upgrades later ) I'm thinking of going back to Win98 where I had access to all the ports that the PC manufacturers supplied and not to be blocked because Microsoft dont want me getting to productive without there say so.

I think we should petition Microsoft to release DX10 for XP, or maybe Lee could give us DBP for Linux

MS needs you to upgrade so that they can get your money. Not just from Vista but they also want it for Office, web design and servers to just name a few. By supplying DX10 for XP; most people would not upgrade, and to a corporation, that is not acceptable.

And as for Linux there have been many post saying why that wont happen so I wont go over it again. You should not have any trouble finding one.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=61700&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=40833&b=1
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=39183&b=1

There are many more.

so...im gunna stick with DBPro and WinXP Pro, and say screw vista, cause i beta tested for vista, and i don't like it, neither does my sound card (5.1 speakers go into...3.random)

Resistance is futile!

the MS Borg somehow assimilate all PC producers so they cannot sell PCs without an operating system / their OS!

You will have Vista and DX10!

Anti-competive practice? I dunno, but I remember the old day when you got a £50 discount if you bought a PC without an OS now no-one sells like that.

so i couldn't find my XP Pro SP2 CD so i was forced to upgrade to Vista...damn you microsoft!

@GatorHex
Plenty of people buy PCs without OSs. However, it's wiser to have an OS on the PC already... Otherwise most people probably wouldn't buy it.

@TinTin

I think we should petition Microsoft to release DX10 for XP, or maybe Lee could give us DBP for Linux I'm getting fed up with all the Microsoft Bloatware, I upgraded to XP because it was meant to be better (in excess of 50 patches/upgrades later ) I'm thinking of going back to Win98 where I had access to all the ports that the PC manufacturers supplied and not to be blocked because Microsoft dont want me getting to productive without there say so.

Microsoft CAN'T release DX10 for XP because it is based on new display drivers, or something to that effect. Those drivers are specifically for Vista, as XP was completely rewritten.

DBP for Linux will NEVER happen. DBP for XBOX will also NEVER happen, even though it is *slightly* more likely because of DX, it still won't happen.

@Xsn1p3rX

so i couldn't find my XP Pro SP2 CD so i was forced to upgrade to Vista...damn you microsoft!

If you already own XP Pro SP2, just missing the CD (And correct me if I'm wrong), but it should be legal to download it off some site because you already have a license to it. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

@Everyone involving the DBC DX7 thing
Sorry, I was pretty sure it was in dx8.1... My bad, please accept my apologies.

@TGC
Hurry up with DBP X10 (Friendly nudge) Also, is it possible for you to show off the current GlobStruct for DBPX10 so far? Or is that being kept confidential from us plugin developers until later on?


Cheers,

-naota

I hope after the DX10, they concentrate on bug fixes for DX 9 db pro, perhaps speed increases! a dark physics update would be nice too

there is a solution to all this microsoft codswallop! stick with OpenGL lol

Microsoft CAN'T release DX10 for XP because it is based on new display drivers, or something to that effect. Those drivers are specifically for Vista, as XP was completely rewritten.

Please cite your source before making such outlandish statements.

Ok, i should've specified CD and Key, i think i lended it to my dad but he's always stolen my stuff and said it was his.... oh well, it was only a paycheck to get Vista Ultimate, plus, im sure if i don't like it microsoft will gimme my money back right?

I have XP on one hard drive and Vista on another. I use XP for everything an update Vista, when Vista is where I want it I’ll us it more especially when DX10 games come out.

Currently Vista is similar to XP when it was release, a resource hog (good stuff and bad stuff- security measures and networking tools) and driver problems, but most people don't remember. DirectSound has been replaced(for legal reasons) so games won't be able to communicate directly to the soundcard unless you happen to have an Creative X-Fi card and a small app called ALchemy which uses OpenAL to bypass all the stuff Vista puts in the way.

Don't blame Vista, nVidia and ATI came up with an entirely new type of desktop display engine, so graphics drivers are still in the revision stage (main reason for performance issues). So its still early days for Vista and XP is king (Btw, XP support ends soon if you didn't know), but with big game titles(and DBP X10) on the horizon Vista might start to invade XP's borders.

I'll still use DBP for awhile anyway, until DBP X10's community base grows abit(even then I'll be using DBP).

"Microsoft CAN'T release DX10 for XP because it is based on new display drivers, or something to that effect. Those drivers are specifically for Vista, as XP was completely rewritten."

Please cite your source before making such outlandish statements.

Allow me to assist.

Will DirectX 10 be available for Windows XP?

No. Windows Vista, which has DirectX 10, includes an updated DirectX runtime based on the runtime in Windows XP SP2 (DirectX 9.0c) with changes to work with the new Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) and the new audio driver stack, and with other updates in the operating system. In addition to Direct3D 9, Windows Vista supports two new interfaces when the correct video hardware and drivers are present: Direct3D9Ex and Direct3D10.

Since these new interfaces rely on the WDDM technology, they will never be available on earlier versions of Windows. All the other changes made to DirectX technologies for Windows Vista are also specific to the new version of Windows. The name DirectX 10 is misleading in that many technologies shipping in the DirectX SDK (XACT, XINPUT, D3DX) are not encompassed by this version number. So, referring to the version number of the DirectX runtime as a whole has lost much of its meaning, even for 9.0c. The DirectX Diagnostic Tool (DXdiag.exe) on Windows Vista does report DirectX 10, but this really only refers to Direct3D 10.

Taken from the Microsoft Developer Network: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219721.aspx#Will_DirectX_10_be_available_for_Windows_XP

Microsoft not releasing DirectX10 for Windows XP had nothing to do with "cannot do" but was instead something they chose not to do.

Microsoft CAN'T release DX10 for XP because it is based on new display drivers

It would appear that changes had to be made to make the DirectX already compatible with XP work in Vista. There is no reason why they couldn't keep the functionality they already had.

DirectX10 isn't as Vista-locked as you might think.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7833

Even John Carmack has been quoted saying that 'he's quite satisfied with Windows XP, going as far to say that Microsoft is artificially forcing gamers to move to Windows Vista for DX10.'

I hold the same opinion and rightfully so.

@Virtual X

there is a solution to all this microsoft codswallop! stick with OpenGL lol

OpenGL does not work as fast as DirectX under Windows. The cost of buying multiple computers, and multiple operating systems, plus the time it would take to develop for them might have made DBP never come out, or not come out soon enough, and TGC might not be were it is today. (Provided you were aiming for multiple operating systems in DBP)

@Burnman
Thanks for helping me out there.

@Mistrel

they chose not to do.

And for good reason! To use a faster display driver, which was completely rewritten. Microsoft will occaisonally look for an opportune time to push technology further, and try to help for a better future, hence why (I assume why) they made DirectX 10 for Vista, and even made Vista in the first place.

If DirectX 10 was not for Vista, Microsoft would loose money. If you think they should give the vista drivers and stuff away for free for XP, then you obviously do not understand the point of a profitable business.

As for ShadowRun, it appears to also be for the XBOX 360... Why would you build two 3D rendering APIs for the program? It would make more sense to just use DirectX 9 (Which I believe the XBOX 360 uses, that or an older DirectX) for both platforms, and make other parts Vista specific... For development speed.

Besides, if you are going to criticise Microsoft, you need to have experience in a similiar area before going against them, not just be all pissed that they didn't give you X10 for free.



Also, I would love to be corrected in any area, if anyone knows something I don't, please educate me on the matter.


Cheers,

-naota

I'm not in a rush to get DBP X10, at the moment I'm quite inexperienced but hopefully getting better. I'd prefer to feel the satisfaction of creating a good graphics game with X9 than have all the advantages in X10 making it easier to do. But that's just my opinion

And for good reason! To use a faster display driver, which was completely rewritten.

..

Besides, if you are going to criticise Microsoft, you need to have experience in a similiar area before going against them, not just be all pissed that they didn't give you X10 for free.

Have you even tried to play games on Vista? Do you even own Vista?

Vista not playing nice with gamers

Source: I bought two new computers with vista home premium, i have deleted vista from both computers and installed xp.
Vista just looks good and has all these fancy things i dont need, i dont like the fact that it eats memory and my programs run slower.

When i installed xp on my two new computers they both looked like they where supercharged.
All my programs run perfectly,i’m also a hardcore gamer and my games under windows ran slower and playing online was a joke.
Under vista the fps were 60fps as soon as i installed xp it shot up to 120 fps

Vista eats memory like macdonals givign away free burgers, its always hungry and wont stop.
Xp hardly used any memory and i had lots of memory to run my games, my games had no lag on line and everything runs perfectly.

Microsoft can keep vista, i want my pc to run fast and not slow like vista.
Too many bugs not enough drivers and a snail can out perform vista.

Source: FPS on Windows Vista:
Counter-Strike = 11~
World of Warcraft = 6~

FPS on Windows XP:
Counter-Strike = 120~
World of Warcraft = 35~

@Mistrel
The point of moving forward is having a good enough PC to do so (In this case). I agree with that too.... It helps developers not to have to worry about someone having old or outdated hardware, so that the software can be made better for the new hardware.

Have you even tried to play games on Vista? Do you even own Vista?

Yes. No. I have tried playing games on Vista, can't recall which, but they played fine. I think Flight Simulator X was one of them. Anyways, me not having Vista is because I happen to be aware of all the bugs, and problems... Hence why I have the Vista Transformation Pack for the prettiness of Vista. Installing Vista was your mistake and a waste of $400 or so dollars, eh?


Look, to get to the topic of why this argument started, you unfairly went against Microsoft for something that they had every right in doing, and I consider that an unjust action.



Cheers,

-naota

I know its a long development road map to go but if falling leaf systems make it happen, it would be nice to play dx 10 on winXP as well as linux and OSX.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070424-project-aims-to-bring-dx10-gaming-to-xp-linux-os-x.html

http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/

Anyone who tells you something is "impossible" with computers is very uneducated and usually an idiot, someone always finds a way eventually around things that appear impossible at the start.


look closely at the mac bar across the top.



now given the lead programmer is only 19 years old and on his own its an ambitious project, being realistic without fan boi isms, Ive seen a few that have never made it.

However, who knows yet.

shame about darwine not being ready yet.
And your well aware of Cider cedega transgaming.

I think the answer to this riddle is more time.

@Mistrel -

Given the new features in the driver model and hardware ( with GPU task switching, GPU memory management and more ) all of which require kernel support - hoisting a driver layer like that on XP is rewriting it to be Vista. FWIW, the MS hw developer page has the graphics logo requirements and it explicitly mentions these GPU features as being required. They are essentially hidden features that API programmers and end-users never see

That is one explanation of why dx10 won't work on xp. Plus,heres the article I got it from:
http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007/02/14/why-dx10-wasnt-created-on-xp-and-why-it-isnt-in-xp.aspx

And here is another fun article in case you still don't believe this:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-Vista-039-s-DirectX-10-on-Windows-XP-58731.shtml

Hopefully after reading those you will understand why dx10 won't work on xp.

@Indi - That as well is not possible to actually get the full dx10 sdk working in xp. All they are doing is making the equivalent in OpenGL. And that would not be good,because that would have geometry shaders rendering on your cpu,which would not actually be a shader then. It'd just be managing the vertexes of a mesh.

I've said it before and I say it again the only reason to by windows vista is to get directx 10..but there are other ways muhahaha oh wait there isnt, damn!
why are there so many names for the vista versions like:
vista basic, buisness,home,pro,ultimate whats next "mega"?

I don't see the problem, Windows XP is getting DX9.0L witch is a sort of slimed down version of DX10. I've see many games run on Vista and I can say that DX9 games don't run as fast(still driver issues), but DX10 games run super fast. So I guess theres an advantage that Vista never shipped with games and the first DX10 game that took so long to come out(not sure if its out yet, but its Lost Planet if you wanted to know). So they can iron out all the bugs before that big game come out. Also when you think about, all these big companies that are making DX10 games for Vista proves that Vista isn't all that bad.