I am thinking of getting into a game builder system with my son, (he is 14 and quite bright). I have looked into a couple different systems for game programing, and stumbled across DarkBasic.

This sounds like a good mix of power and ease of use, but I have a few reservations.

1. The manual and documentation have been roundly critized as just plain awful. Will this be a deal breaker with a 14 year old?

2. It looks like by the time you buy all the add ons and such you need to really get a complete tool set you can sink a lot of coin in this. Just how much money do you need to spend with this system?

3. How does this compare with Torque for toolset and ease of use?

Thanks!
Dan

It sounds like DBPro is ideal for him as a learning language.

Yes, the manual could be better, but it's backed up by these forums - anything that isn't covered by the manual or isn't clear, you can bet that there's someone here that knows the answers.

To use DBPro you need to buy ... DBPro. I have one plug-in that I've bought (Blue-gui, for windows, buttons etc), a few free downloads, and a whole set of plug-ins I've written myself that I give away for free. Most people can get away with buying nothing but DBPro. Remember though that DBPro is *only* a programming language - you may still need to get models from somewhere, although this is true to with other game-building systems.

I can't compare DBPro with torque - I've never seriously checked it out.

1) The documentation isn't that bad if you just need to look up syntax or the general gist of what a command does, however in terms of learning the language the help files don't help so much. To start off with the language it would be best to either get the DBP books(I've not read them) or look at some user made tutorials (the Binary Moon hovercraft one comes to mind). I personally started using DBP at the age of 12(my first language) and it took quite a while for me to understand most of it as I'm not so fond of following tutorials and prefer to learn by myself, I started off by modifying examples and looking at other source code. I find this approach fun, but it's slower in the long term I guess, and you can learn bad coding habits(not that the DBP examples will make them any better ).

2) I've only recently bought a few plugins as I've dived into making more complex / large projects, however you can make do with just DBP(with patch 6.2) and a few free command libraries, you only need things like Cloggy's D3D DLL and Sparky's DLL to start off with(both are free) and other things like Benjamin's Tempest / Multisync(also free). The only plugins you may need are EZ Rotate(unless you're a math genius ). Things like physics can be done using Walaber's Newton wrapper(free) AI is probably the only snag as IanM's A* library while very useful is merely a library and not a complete package like Dark AI and I don't recall any user made plugins / code that do something similar.

3) Never used Torque, however DBP doesn't come with much in the way of tools on its own. There are many user made tools available that are usually free, things like a modeling app can be free if you use Blender for example or GIMP for textures etc, so if you don't want to spend much you don't have to.

Nobody ever uses manuals to learn a product, even one as complex as a programming language. The best way to learn, is to mess around with examples, and study the commands help files as you discover them.

I think the best bet is to grab the demo, then take one of the character models supplied with DBPro and see what you can get him to do. By getting stuck in, you can quickly see how things work, but more importantly your son will be getting cool results from the outset. With a model you can easily change it's texture, make it walk around, humiliate it if you like - it's more important to have a laugh and enjoy working on your project than knowing the exact ins and outs.

But I think most people would agree that there's no easier game central programming language to learn than DBPro, you guys will be doing more in DBPro within a month than any other platform.

I agree that DBPro is a good place to start.

I personally think the manual gets critisized because some newcommers expect it to tell them how to make a game step by step. However, it isn't designed to be a tutorial on how to program - it is a command reference - a guide to the available commands and what they do, and in that respect it actually does a pretty good job. It's a bit like reading a French dictionary and expecting to be able to speak French - the dictionary only tells you the words, not how to string them together.

To learn how to piece the commands together in the right structure, though, is a different process - and there are many different ways of doing that. I believe that most people 'pick it up' as they would their native language by hanging around places like this and learning by example. There are literally thousands of example programs here - and when you have a go at something yourself, you can post your code here and someone will always come along to show you how you can improve it.

For people who like a more structured approach to learning, there are numerous tutorials around here (eg. http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=hands_on_vol1).

As for accessories - the only thing you really need to buy is DBPro itself. For creating the media to go with it (like models, sounds, images etc.) there are free programs available that enable you to do this, or you can just scour the internet for free media.

1)
It depends on your programming ability. I'm guessing you have some experience and will be teaching your son the ropes when it comes to the coding. If thats the case then the help files are just fine. I would liken them to the Quick Basic help files bt a little easier to navigate they tell you the syntax and usage thats all you need.

There are plenty of tutorials on the forums to get you started.

2)
I agree with both IanM and DarkCoder you only need to get darkbasic pro. I have not bought any addons yet. I have experimented with the free plugins but as yet have been able to code all i need within darkbasic

3)
I looked into torque before and from what i remember it has tools for making a gui and levels and all sorts of object systems. It's a different animal from darkBasic. You will have to learn to program in c++ to get the most out of it. Plus it costs a bomb for the good version (Torque Game Engine: Advanced) that lets you use DirectX9 shaders think it's about $300 for the indie license.

DarkBasic Pro is an empty canvas so you can plan how you want your game to work and build it that way. You decide how the gui is displayed how levels load etc. You can use DirectX 9 shaders, and the engine costs alot less. I would say DB is your best bet for a beginner.

GET THE DEMO AND TRY!

I've looked at many and haven't found better than DBP for indi game development. There are many free tools, you don't have to spend more. The manual is okay, people who hate it should realy look at the example files that come at the bottom of each command to see how it's used.

Torque realy will cost you an arm and a leg! If you realy want the hassel of C++ (wait until you see that manual) you could always go for DarkGDK

When I wrote the current suite of tutorials in the newsletter, which is the absolute basics, Rick (FD of the company) and I discussed it at length. The gameplan in the end was to write something that my son could use, he's 10 years old. So there are 10 or so "Complete Beginner" tutorials to help yourself to as the starting point.
They start at issue 49, they are all linked from this page - http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=newsletter

After that, there are some good beginner tutorials written by TDK, which merely assume you can string the lines together in an orderly fashion. They were made for DB Classic, but understand that they all work in DB Pro too.
They are available on TDK's forums - http://www.computechtenerife.com/forum/index.php/board,26.0.html

So far, you've got more than will fill your month's trial. After that there are dozens more tutorials, full games with source code from previous competitions and us wonderful chaps and chapesses

I have been using Darkbasic Pro since I was ten. It took ME only a year to fully be able to make a simple game WITHOUT buying anything but DBPro and WITHOUT even knowing about the TGC Fourms(which has been very helpfull since I found it) If you and your son want to start making games right away I have just one piece of advice, "GET DARKBASIC PRO!"

@BatVink

TDK's forum requires registration. It may be quicker to visit the newcomers forum, as quite a few of his tutorials are available there.